Are Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 connected?

[Margery]

In response to a question over here U.S. and Israel on High Alert as Iran Moves Fighters in Syria in which @Anastacia asked a particularly fun question I've quoted here.

"I was also surprised Jordan helped intercept Iran's attack. I try to simplify geopolitics in my mind and sum it up with the understanding that, eventually, everyone will be against Israel (except SA and the merchants of Tarshish who at least decry Ez 38 attack).

I'm sorry if I'm about to derail this thread...
I've never been sold on Ps 83 being a prophecy, but am looking at it more closely lately.
I understand that Ps 83 is regarded as happening before Ez 38 since that inner ring of Israel's enemies are not mentioned.
So I'm wondering if Is 17 and Ps 83 are viewed as happening close together, one sets off the other, completely separate events, or we're not sure?
Opinions please: which would likely happen first?
And do you all think Ps 83 and Is 17 happen this side of the rapture?
Thanks for any input"

 

[Anastacia]

Thanks for starting this thread, Margery!
I have always kinda dismissed Ps 83 because supposedly the Israeli wars in '48 and '67 eliminated those mentioned in Ps 83.
But, people like Bill Salus and Joel Rosenberg have lists of who those ancient players are in modern day.
Difficult to make sense of the connection to Is 17 so I cant wait to hear everyone's understanding!

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Im not sold about Psalm 83 but the players actions mentioned in it seems to be slowly playing out at the moment.

If anything, i think Isaiah 17 could be the 1st domino piece to kick things off.
If Israel also suffers a bit of loss as Isaiah describes below :

"4 In that day the splendor of Jacob will fade,

and the fat of his body will waste away,

5as the reaper gathers the standing grain

and harvests the ears with his arm,

as one gleans heads of grain

in the Valley of Rephaim."

Then i'd dare say the Prophecies of Jeremiah concerning Iran would follow as revenge for this .

Where the destruction of Israel's inner circle of Neighbours fits in amongst this, I'm still trying to figure this out LOL

 

[Margery]

So first off, I'm not sold on Psalm 83 being a prophecy, but I remain open minded about it. I actually think a better fit might include the same nations but as a grouping with Iran, Damascus and starting with terrorism. I think Bills other book on the destruction of the area of Iran that was ancient Elam fits the profile of what we might be seeing start to take shape much better. Bill has mentioned that these might dovetail.

So his idea is that the inner ring which include Syria, Lebanon, Gaza I think, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt are all modern day successors to the nations mentioned in Psalm 83, and they are conspicuous by their absence from Ezek 38-39. Great point and Bill uses it to explain the state of Israel in peaceful oblivion to the threat of the Northern Coalition (Bill calls them the outer ring of enemies) poised to invade in Ezek 38. Most scholars feel that Russia, Turkey, Iran as well as Ethiopia/Sudan and Libya/North Africa are the main players but there is also the mention of "and many peoples with thee" that critics of Psalm 83 say could include the inner ring.



This is one of the things that makes it impossible to have this current war in Israel be Psalm 83 because Jordan and Egypt have been acting as friends of Israel, Jordan going to the effort of shooting down some of the missiles from Iran, as did Saudi Arabia.

Something happens to make Israel oblivious to that invasion of Ezek 38. Is it Ps 83 or is it as Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum says (@Tall Timbers has a thread up that quotes Dr F on that topic exactly) that Israel is dwelling without due care and attention having come back from some war?

I look at these scriptures to provide a possible solution or an enhanced view of the Psalm 83 war if it is a prophecy. It certainly dovetails. We could leave Psalm 83 out of it altogether with these next 3 passages and still have a good explanation of why Ezek 38 has Israel in such a complacent state, not worried about invasion. Because if they do defeat the inner ring especially Syria/Damascus that could be the trigger for Ezek 38.

Isaiah 17- we all know it, its the destruction of Damascus. I don't think we are here by then or by Ezek 38 because of the way God's attention has turned to Israel as His focus.

Ezekiel 32 but only from v 17-32 because there is a time division starting at v 17. The prophet deals with Egypt in 1-16 but then is given a separate prophecy starting from v 17. That includes: Egypt, Assyria, ELAM!!!! aka Iran but the south western shores and up into modern Iraq. Meshek and Tubal are there, they are in modern Turkey. The "Princes of the North" are there (a bit fuzzy on who they are) and finally the Sidonians, who are part of modern day Lebanon.

Jeremiah 49 but not the inclusion of v28-33 with Kedar and Hazor, that was fulfilled in the past with Babylon. That includes Ammon (northern Jordan) Edom (southern Jordan) Damascus and ELAM again. The Elam and Damascus elements seem to fit with Ezek 32:24-25 and Isaiah 17.


Isaiah and Jeremiah above both include Damascus

Jeremiah and Ezekiel include Elam

Ezekiel includes Assyria (think modern day Syria, which includes Damascus), it covers Elam (modern day south west Iran and up into Iraq) so I think of it as my key to the puzzle.

If you draw 3 circles that intersect, they include bits of the whole puzzle. Each one has 2 out of the 3 essential elements.


Starting here:

Ezekiel 32: 17-32. Egypt is the reluctant player here. All these nations are tied together by terrorism but Egypt is mentioned 3 times across the whole prophecy, beginning middle and end. So Egypt plays an important role in some way. Terrorism is the other common theme. I'll bold areas to pay close attention to.

Ezek 32: 17-32
17 It came to pass also in the twelfth year, on the fifteenth day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying:


18 “Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt,
And cast them down to the depths of the earth,
Her and the daughters of the famous nations,
With those who go down to the Pit:
19 ‘Whom do you surpass in beauty?
Go down, be placed with the uncircumcised.’

20 “They shall fall in the midst of those slain by the sword;
She is delivered to the sword,
Drawing her and all her multitudes.
21 The strong among the mighty
Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell
With those who help him:
‘They have gone down,
They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’

22 “Assyria is there, and all her company,
With their graves all around her,
All of them slain, fallen by the sword.
23 Her graves are set in the recesses of the Pit,
And her company is all around her grave,
All of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Who caused terror in the land of the living.

24 “There is Elam and all her multitude,
All around her grave,
All of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth,
Who caused their terror in the land of the living;
Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.
25 They have set her bed in the midst of the slain,
With all her multitude,
With her graves all around it,
All of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword;
Though their terror was caused
In the land of the living,
Yet they bear their shame
With those who go down to the Pit;
It was put in the midst of the slain.

26 “There are Meshech and Tubal and all their multitudes,
With all their graves around it,
All of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword,
Though they caused their terror in the land of the living.

27 They do not lie with the mighty
Who are fallen of the uncircumcised,
Who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war;
They have laid their swords under their heads,
But their iniquities will be on their bones,
Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
28 Yes, you shall be broken in the midst of the uncircumcised,
And lie with those slain by the sword.

29 “There is Edom,
Her kings and all her princes,
Who despite their might
Are laid beside those slain by the sword;
They shall lie with the uncircumcised,
And with those who go down to the Pit.

30 There are the princes of the north,
All of them, and all the Sidonians,
Who have gone down with the slain
In shame at the terror which they caused by their might;
They lie uncircumcised with those slain by the sword,
And bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.

31 “Pharaoh will see them
And be comforted over all his multitude,
Pharaoh and all his army,
Slain by the sword,”
Says the Lord God.

32 “For I have caused My terror in the land of the living;
And he shall be placed in the midst of the uncircumcised
With those slain by the sword,
Pharaoh and all his multitude,”
Says the Lord God.


My thoughts:
Notice the refrain of slain by the sword/fallen by the sword. Egypt is somehow comforted that though she lies dead, she has company. That implies that she didn't directly cause this act of war that has them all slain. Egypt has done wrong, and she's being punished but there are other nations here.

Notice the refrain of terror caused by their might, in the land of the living (Assyria-Syria/Iraq, Elam-SW Iran, Meschech & Tubal- Turkey, Princes of the North, Sidonians -Lebanon) But not Jordan or Egypt.

Notice who isn't part of the conflict but seemingly killed because of it (Egypt, Edom-ie Southern Jordan and Meschek and Tubal -ie Turkey)

V18 the "daughters" (descendants?) of the famous nations (probably these nations mentioned here) which would explain why Jordan and Egypt seem drawn into a conflict they didn't want. Right now they are somewhat friendly to Israel.

V20 Egypt falls but she isn't weilding the sword. She falls as a result of the sword being "delivered TO the sword". But v 32 explains that GOD has caused the ultimate terror and placed Egypt in the grave.

V 23 Assyria which is modern day Syria and parts of Iraq is called out for causing terror in the land of the living.

v 24 and 25 we come to the HEART OF THE MATTER. Elam. South Western Iran. Not only does she fall by the sword, but she bears SHAME for it, and it's repeated TWICE. This is very significant. I think that might imply that Elam is at the heart of the problem.

V 26&28 we see modern day Turkey in Meschech and Tubal. Now this one gets mentioned TWICE for causing terror in the land of the living, but no shame attached. Something ODD here. Turkey doesn't go down with the mighty, but instead seems to have been caught off guard, sleeping with their weapons under them. In contrast with the mighty who go down with their weapons in hand. Then this bit explains why they were caught up in this "But their iniquities will be on their bones, Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living." Guilty as charged of terrorism. I have thoughts about what happens to Turkey when Damascus blows. She's possibly caught unaware, and downwind of the fallout whatever that might be.

V 29 Edom is southern Jordan and she doesn't seem to be a combatant, but caught in the crossfire, much like Egypt.

V 30 puts Sidon (south central Lebanon on the coast) and the "Princes of the North" together. They are in shame, because of their terrorism which they directly caused because of their might. Leaving the Princes of the North, focus on Lebanon here, because this current conflict, the Israelis mention that Hezbollah out of Lebanon is a far bigger, better armed threat than Gaza has been with Hamas. Might. They have it. Iran gave it to them. Princes of the North I think might be the Russians in Syria for reasons I'll explain later.

V 31&32 is God speaking, and He is the one causing HIS Terror here - in the land of the living. He places Pharoah in the grave. But Pharoah ruler of Egypt is comforted because of all the others going down in death with him.


I'll unpack the other passages next.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

Ever since the Russians USSR massed on Ukraine's border and invaded, I've thought Ezekiel 38-39 has started. Thinking back recently because of speed at which things are happening, maybe the lull between Crimea and Ukraine was the turning back, but I don't know.
I think Ps 83 and Isaiah 17 overlap/part of Ezekiel 38-39
No time-frame is given for any of them, but militarily and strategically, especially with current events, it makes sense (to me, anyway).

I've posted on this elsewhere here on CCF and RF.
FWIW, I think US and Canada are lands of unwalled villages. Attack/invasion from northern/polar/circumpolar routes not unthinkable
Israel was mostly at peace with neighbors for quite awhile
Every day is a day closer to

 

[Tall Timbers]

Ever since the Russians USSR massed on Ukraine's border and invaded, I've thought Ezekiel 38-39 has started.

I don't understand how someone would see a Russian invasion of Ukraine as the start of Eze 38-39.

 

[Tall Timbers]

I'll admit here that I've yet to study Psalm 83/Isaiah 17. Reckon I should study those one of these days.

 

[mikhen7]

I re-read the Psalm and each time I read it I see it as an imprecatory prayer of Asaph that expresses the wishes of he and his people Israel. It is first a plea to God that goes into some detail about how the enemy is oppressing them from all sides causing pain and anguish. He speaks of them being enemies of God that rise to bring constant tumult in the nation and against God's people. He then asks God to deal with them as God has dealt with His enemies in the past. He mentions their desire to take the "Pastures of God" for their possession. He then goes into the imprecation with much illustrative language, asking God to stop them and bring them to an end.

In vs13 to 18 two things stand out to me:

1) The reason for the prayer is that they may turn to God.

16 Fill their faces with shame,
That they may seek Your name, O LORD.

2) The statement asking them to Perish.

If it stopped there (vs. 17) one may make the argument that the prayer is for God to eliminate them by death (that is one of the Heb. meanings of the word). But I don't think that is the intent. He repeats in vs 18 "That they may know you..." How can they Know Him if they are dead? I believe Asaph's Godly prayer is ultimately a prayer for these enemies causing oppression (Salus's inner circle) to be saved and turn to the true God. What should perish is the one thing that ties each of these oppressors together, Islam the religion of death.

17 Let them be confounded and dismayed forever;
Yes, let them be put to shame and perish,
18 That they may know that You, whose name alone is the LORD,
Are the Most High over all the earth.


Whereas in Isaiah 17 the oracle is against Damascus a city in Syria. Damascus is the oldest city on the earth that has never been destroyed and rebuilt. The history is amazing. But it is also an Islamic stronghold. And because of this association and the directives that come from there against Israel the decree is clear.

In vs 1 we read:
(1) Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city,
And it will be a ruinous heap. -- (and so the larger areas around her into Israel and Jordan.)

and in vs 14
(14) Then behold, at eventide, trouble!
And before the morning, he is no more.

Because the destruction is so final, it may be better associated with the Gog and Magog conflict rather than Psalm 83.

The nations are rushing like the waters against Israel (to war) but they will flee far away when God makes His name known before them. through this remarkable show of power against Damascus and the surrounding regions.

vs. 13 - The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters;
But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind,
Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

To me this annihilation of Damascus sounds more like what will happen in the G/M war than Ps. 83. The nations that fight against Israel in G/M will find their graves in the Land of Israel. They are annihilated just like Damascus.

Ez. 39:11 “It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog.


Its my understanding that Psalm 83 describes exactly what is going on now, at least in part, with all of these smaller groups and terrorist groups constantly trying to destroy God's people. The prayer is for their salvation, but that would mean their ideology would need to perish.

I know some will disagree and that's ok. My thoughts are not entirely bereft of those who would see different. I still see the ring of nations and I still see what was going on in the ancient past still being a huge thorn in Israel's side today. If Asaph's prayer were answered today, then either revival would happen or Islam will cease to be. Because of the other prophecies of these final days, I choose the latter. And that will finally come to fruition in the Tribulation period.

I see psalm 83 in progress and continuing into the Tribulation. I see Isa 17 in concurrence with G/M war. It may happen prior to that, but I think there will be many things about it that coincide. But all of these, G/M, Ps. 83, and Isa 17 will ultimately end with Islam and all false religions being put out to pasture. In the End it is God who is Glorified and many will come to know Him as Lord.

 

[mikhen7]

So first off, I'm not sold on Psalm 83 being a prophecy, but I remain open minded about it. I actually think a better fit might include the same nations but as a grouping with Iran, Damascus and starting with terrorism. I think Bills other book on the destruction of the area of Iran that was ancient Elam fits the profile of what we might be seeing start to take shape much better. Bill has mentioned that these might dovetail.

So his idea is that the inner ring which include Syria, Lebanon, Gaza I think, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt are all modern day successors to the nations mentioned in Psalm 83, and they are conspicuous by their absence from Ezek 38-39. Great point and Bill uses it to explain the state of Israel in peaceful oblivion to the threat of the Northern Coalition (Bill calls them the outer ring of enemies) poised to invade in Ezek 38. Most scholars feel that Russia, Turkey, Iran as well as Ethiopia/Sudan and Libya/North Africa are the main players but there is also the mention of "and many peoples with thee" that critics of Psalm 83 say could include the inner ring.



This is one of the things that makes it impossible to have this current war in Israel be Psalm 83 because Jordan and Egypt have been acting as friends of Israel, Jordan going to the effort of shooting down some of the missiles from Iran, as did Saudi Arabia.

Something happens to make Israel oblivious to that invasion of Ezek 38. Is it Ps 83 or is it as Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum says (@Tall Timbers has a thread up that quotes Dr F on that topic exactly) that Israel is dwelling without due care and attention having come back from some war?

I look at these scriptures to provide a possible solution or an enhanced view of the Psalm 83 war if it is a prophecy. It certainly dovetails. We could leave Psalm 83 out of it altogether with these next 3 passages and still have a good explanation of why Ezek 38 has Israel in such a complacent state, not worried about invasion. Because if they do defeat the inner ring especially Syria/Damascus that could be the trigger for Ezek 38.

Isaiah 17- we all know it, its the destruction of Damascus. I don't think we are here by then or by Ezek 38 because of the way God's attention has turned to Israel as His focus.

Ezekiel 32 but only from v 17-32 because there is a time division starting at v 17. The prophet deals with Egypt in 1-16 but then is given a separate prophecy starting from v 17. That includes: Egypt, Assyria, ELAM!!!! aka Iran but the south western shores and up into modern Iraq. Meshek and Tubal are there, they are in modern Turkey. The "Princes of the North" are there (a bit fuzzy on who they are) and finally the Sidonians, who are part of modern day Lebanon.

Jeremiah 49 but not the inclusion of v28-33 with Kedar and Hazor, that was fulfilled in the past with Babylon. That includes Ammon (northern Jordan) Edom (southern Jordan) Damascus and ELAM again. The Elam and Damascus elements seem to fit with Ezek 32:24-25 and Isaiah 17.


Isaiah and Jeremiah above both include Damascus

Jeremiah and Ezekiel include Elam

Ezekiel includes Assyria (think modern day Syria, which includes Damascus), it covers Elam (modern day south west Iran and up into Iraq) so I think of it as my key to the puzzle.

If you draw 3 circles that intersect, they include bits of the whole puzzle. Each one has 2 out of the 3 essential elements.


Starting here:

Ezekiel 32: 17-32. Egypt is the reluctant player here. All these nations are tied together by terrorism but Egypt is mentioned 3 times across the whole prophecy, beginning middle and end. So Egypt plays an important role in some way. Terrorism is the other common theme. I'll bold areas to pay close attention to.

Ezek 32: 17-32
17 It came to pass also in the twelfth year, on the fifteenth day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying:


18 “Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt,
And cast them down to the depths of the earth,
Her and the daughters of the famous nations,
With those who go down to the Pit:
19 ‘Whom do you surpass in beauty?
Go down, be placed with the uncircumcised.’

20 “They shall fall in the midst of those slain by the sword;
She is delivered to the sword,
Drawing her and all her multitudes.
21 The strong among the mighty
Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell
With those who help him:
‘They have gone down,
They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’

22 “Assyria is there, and all her company,
With their graves all around her,
All of them slain, fallen by the sword.
23 Her graves are set in the recesses of the Pit,
And her company is all around her grave,
All of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Who caused terror in the land of the living.

24 “There is Elam and all her multitude,
All around her grave,
All of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth,
Who caused their terror in the land of the living;
Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.
25 They have set her bed in the midst of the slain,
With all her multitude,
With her graves all around it,
All of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword;
Though their terror was caused
In the land of the living,
Yet they bear their shame
With those who go down to the Pit;
It was put in the midst of the slain.

26 “There are Meshech and Tubal and all their multitudes,
With all their graves around it,
All of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword,
Though they caused their terror in the land of the living.

27 They do not lie with the mighty
Who are fallen of the uncircumcised,
Who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war;
They have laid their swords under their heads,
But their iniquities will be on their bones,
Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
28 Yes, you shall be broken in the midst of the uncircumcised,
And lie with those slain by the sword.

29 “There is Edom,
Her kings and all her princes,
Who despite their might
Are laid beside those slain by the sword;
They shall lie with the uncircumcised,
And with those who go down to the Pit.

30 There are the princes of the north,
All of them, and all the Sidonians,
Who have gone down with the slain
In shame at the terror which they caused by their might;
They lie uncircumcised with those slain by the sword,
And bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.

31 “Pharaoh will see them
And be comforted over all his multitude,
Pharaoh and all his army,
Slain by the sword,”
Says the Lord God.

32 “For I have caused My terror in the land of the living;
And he shall be placed in the midst of the uncircumcised
With those slain by the sword,
Pharaoh and all his multitude,”
Says the Lord God.


My thoughts:
Notice the refrain of slain by the sword/fallen by the sword. Egypt is somehow comforted that though she lies dead, she has company. That implies that she didn't directly cause this act of war that has them all slain. Egypt has done wrong, and she's being punished but there are other nations here.

Notice the refrain of terror caused by their might, in the land of the living (Assyria-Syria/Iraq, Elam-SW Iran, Meschech & Tubal- Turkey, Princes of the North, Sidonians -Lebanon) But not Jordan or Egypt.

Notice who isn't part of the conflict but seemingly killed because of it (Egypt, Edom-ie Southern Jordan and Meschek and Tubal -ie Turkey)

V18 the "daughters" (descendants?) of the famous nations (probably these nations mentioned here) which would explain why Jordan and Egypt seem drawn into a conflict they didn't want. Right now they are somewhat friendly to Israel.

V20 Egypt falls but she isn't weilding the sword. She falls as a result of the sword being "delivered TO the sword". But v 32 explains that GOD has caused the ultimate terror and placed Egypt in the grave.

V 23 Assyria which is modern day Syria and parts of Iraq is called out for causing terror in the land of the living.

v 24 and 25 we come to the HEART OF THE MATTER. Elam. South Western Iran. Not only does she fall by the sword, but she bears SHAME for it, and it's repeated TWICE. This is very significant. I think that might imply that Elam is at the heart of the problem.

V 26&28 we see modern day Turkey in Meschech and Tubal. Now this one gets mentioned TWICE for causing terror in the land of the living, but no shame attached. Something ODD here. Turkey doesn't go down with the mighty, but instead seems to have been caught off guard, sleeping with their weapons under them. In contrast with the mighty who go down with their weapons in hand. Then this bit explains why they were caught up in this "But their iniquities will be on their bones, Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living." Guilty as charged of terrorism. I have thoughts about what happens to Turkey when Damascus blows. She's possibly caught unaware, and downwind of the fallout whatever that might be.

V 29 Edom is southern Jordan and she doesn't seem to be a combatant, but caught in the crossfire, much like Egypt.

V 30 puts Sidon (south central Lebanon on the coast) and the "Princes of the North" together. They are in shame, because of their terrorism which they directly caused because of their might. Leaving the Princes of the North, focus on Lebanon here, because this current conflict, the Israelis mention that Hezbollah out of Lebanon is a far bigger, better armed threat than Gaza has been with Hamas. Might. They have it. Iran gave it to them. Princes of the North I think might be the Russians in Syria for reasons I'll explain later.

V is God speaking, and He is the one causing HIS Terror here - in the land of the living. He places Pharoah in the grave. But Pharoah ruler of Egypt is comforted because of all the others going down in death with him.


I'll unpack the other passages next.

Excellent stuff Margery. Great study!!

 

[Margery]

18 That they may know that You, whose name alone is the LORD,
Are the Most High over all the earth.

I love that finish line, and it fits with what you brought out. I think that final verse describes the Millennial Reign of Christ when they (the believing remnant out of the nations as well as Israel) do know God, that He is the Most High over all the earth. The Psalm describes the anguish Israel has lived thru since becoming a nation again in 1948.

The connection between Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 38/39 has always sounded like it fits. I've often wondered if Isaiah 17 the destruction of Damascus is the trigger point for the Ezekiel 38 invasion. But due to the timing element that I'm focusing in on, it fits as part of the Gog Magog like you suggest.

What's exciting to me in both Isaiah 17 Destruction of Damascus and Ezek 38/39 Gog Magog is how God is speaking of Israel turning to Him in these conflicts. His focus is on Israel, her salvation which suggests that both these passages happen after the Rapture- and certainly in the GM event, God says He is making Himself KNOWN among the nations (goyim or gentiles) in this display of power. If Christians were still here we know Him. So I think the GM is definitely after the Rapture.

I was going to look at Isaiah 17 next anyway- going to bold some bits for further discussion.

1 The burden against Damascus.

“Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city,
And it will be a ruinous heap.
2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken;
They will be for flocks
Which lie down, and no one will make them afraid.
3 The fortress also will cease from Ephraim,
The kingdom from Damascus,
And the remnant of Syria;
They will be as the glory of the children of Israel,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

4 “In that day it shall come to pass
That the glory of Jacob will wane,
And the fatness of his flesh grow lean.
5 It shall be as when the harvester gathers the grain,
And reaps the heads with his arm;
It shall be as he who gathers heads of grain
In the Valley of Rephaim.
6 Yet gleaning grapes will be left in it,
Like the shaking of an olive tree,
Two or three olives at the top of the uppermost bough,
Four or five in its most fruitful branches,”
Says the Lord God of Israel.

7 In that day a man will look to his Maker,
And his eyes will have respect for the Holy One of Israel.
8 He will not look to the altars,
The work of his hands;
He will not respect what his fingers have made,
Nor the wooden images nor the incense altars.

9 In that day his strong cities will be as a forsaken bough
And an uppermost branch,
Which they left because of the children of Israel;
And there will be desolation.

10 Because you have forgotten the God of your salvation,
And have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,
Therefore you will plant pleasant plants
And set out foreign seedlings;
11 In the day you will make your plant to grow,
And in the morning you will make your seed to flourish;
But the harvest will be a heap of ruins
In the day of grief and desperate sorrow.

12 Woe to the multitude of many people
Who make a noise like the roar of the seas,
And to the rushing of nations
That make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!
13 The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters;
But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away,
And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind,
Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.
14 Then behold, at eventide, trouble!
And before the morning, he is no more.
This is the portion of those who plunder us,
And the lot of those who rob us.

Points:
Damascus has never ceased being a city with inhabitants. It is the oldest CONTINUOUSLY inhabited city on Earth. Yes during several invasions the city took some severe hits in the past, but it never became a pasture for flocks. It remained an inhabited city even as it is today- still a city, even if parts of it have crumbled into dust due to civil war.

This passage is one of contrasts. The contrast between Damascus and Israel. look at v 3 & 4 "3 The fortress also will cease from Ephraim, The kingdom from Damascus, And the remnant of Syria; They will be as the glory of the children of Israel,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

It mentions the fortress of Ephraim- a northern tribe that is often synonymous with the northern kingdom of Israel versus the southern kingdom of Judah after Rehoboam son of Solomon split the kingdom by his behaviour.

WHAT does that mean??? V 4 explains. "4 “In that day it shall come to pass That the glory of Jacob will wane, And the fatness of his flesh grow lean.

OK so when Damascus finally goes, something awful happens to Israel too. Damascus will be like the glory of the children of Israel (some prophecy teachers say the phrase children of Israel means the IDF) The glory of Jacob (Israel) will wane.

The mention of the Valley of Rephaim is interesting. When I first looked that up, I found out that is the site of the main rail link between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem across northern Israel. I have no idea why gleaning grain in that area is synonymous with poor harvest but it's obvious that is the general meaning of the rest of the passage. The Rephaim were one of the tribes of giants if that means anything here.

It's up in the area of Ephraim - which is northern Israel again, near the border with Syria. So now the mention of the fortress of Ephraim makes sense.

Something awful happens to Damascus, and it affects northern Israel as well. So bad it's like when the harvesters have been thru leaving a few gleanings behind. All that's left is destruction to the north, and northern Israel is hurt in the process.

STILL in V 4-- and v 7 and v 9 -THREE TIMES the phrase "In That Day" which is often used of the Tribulation period. CONTRAST THAT WITH V 10 & 11 when another day tied to this comes into view:

"10 Because you have forgotten the God of your salvation,
And have not been mindful of the Rock of your stronghold,
Therefore you will plant pleasant plants
And set out foreign seedlings;
11 In the day you will make your plant to grow,
And in the morning you will make your seed to flourish;
But the harvest will be a heap of ruins
In the day of grief and desperate sorrow."

That is a very specific cause and effect. Because Israel forgot God they will plant a pleasant (seems like a good idea to them at the time) plant, foreign seedlings and IN THE DAY you will make them grow, the morning will flourish, but the harvest will be a heap of ruin in the day of grief and desperate sorrow.

I suspect we are very definitely looking at the Tribulation period and I have begun to think that this foreign plant, this "pleasant" seedling is none other than the covenant with the AC which Isaiah 28:14-15 mentions here:

Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scornful men,
Who rule this people who are in Jerusalem,
15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
And with Sheol we are in agreement.
When the overflowing scourge passes through,
It will not come to us,
For we have made lies our refuge,
And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.”

I never used to think this, but now I'm placing Isaiah 17 squarely around the time of the beginning of the Tribulation, at the time of the signing of the covenant. Whether or not it's the trigger for Ezek 38 or concurrent with it, this looks like the beginning of the Trib. Sign the covenant in the morning, Damascus is toast by evening and Israel is in pain. God protects her. Not the AC. This might be God's way of pointing out that the AC is powerless to help Israel. Especially just after they sign that covenant. Which seems like a great idea. What Israel wants more than anything is to be at peace with the rest of the world.

God deals with the nations in V 12-13 and it's a MULTITUDE of nations, not just Damascus, capital of Syria that are crying out at Israel. They make a rush AT Israel, again suggesting there is more to this conflict than one nation, one city.

But it's interesting that the motive of Damascus (and possibly the other nations), is the same one in Ezekiel 38-- PLUNDER

because destruction happens to those who plunder Israel.

Tomorrow I'll go thru Jeremiah and see what he has to say on the topic of Elam, Damascus and other moving parts.

 

[mikhen7]

I am in firm agreement. Great exposition. Great job in bringing out those points! This will surely help others in putting the pieces together!

 

[Anastacia]

Is 17 is so much easier for me to understand; whereas I read Ps 83 and just cant see a war.

I have always thought (hoped) the destruction of Damascus would be prior to the Trib since it could be a last wake up call to those we've been witnessing to. But @Margery and @mikhen7 make a great case for it to be at the start of the Trib... which means there's really no other prophetic wars we might see.

(Why is Iran called both Persia and Elam? Different regions of modern day Iran?)

I think I've read @Ghoti Ichthus explain how she thinks Russia's invasion of Ukraine could've been the very beginning of Ez 38. Where God says to Gog in vs 4 "I will turn you around put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army"-- perhaps Russia finishes the war with Ukraine and is heading back north when something entices them to turn back in the direction and continue on to Israel.
Kinda makes you wonder especially as we are hearing Russia threaten to help Iran if the U.S. helps Israel! Maybe it was the Ukraine war that started moving Russia's troops in that direction.

I've always thought a certain way but then reality causes me to re-evaluate. And then there are many good teachers out there who all disagree! For instance, Andy Woods and Don Stewart think Is 17 has already been fulfilled. I'm sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to see what happens next. I just hope it will be really obvious if we do see something prophetic! I guess that's part of why I was hoping Damascus would be pre-trib.

It will be great to hear how Jeremiah 49 fits in here too!

 

[Tall Timbers]

I have always thought (hoped) the destruction of Damascus would be prior to the Trib since it could be a last wake up call to those we've been witnessing to. But @Margery and @mikhen7 make a great case for it to be at the start of the Trib... which means there's really no other prophetic wars we might see.

I don't think either will be at the start of the Trib. More likely somewhere after the Rapture and before the Trib starts. The wars described at the beginning of Trib are of a different variety and ostensibly Israel will have peace for a short time. But much of the world will be thrown into war.

 

[mikhen7]

Yes, around the beginning which could definitely be before. The only thing that happens definitely at the beginning is the AC delivering his pact of death (false peace).

 

[GLC11]

So first off, I'm not sold on Psalm 83 being a prophecy, but I remain open minded about it. I actually think a better fit might include the same nations but as a grouping with Iran, Damascus and starting with terrorism. I think Bills other book on the destruction of the area of Iran that was ancient Elam fits the profile of what we might be seeing start to take shape much better. Bill has mentioned that these might dovetail.

So his idea is that the inner ring which include Syria, Lebanon, Gaza I think, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Egypt are all modern day successors to the nations mentioned in Psalm 83, and they are conspicuous by their absence from Ezek 38-39. Great point and Bill uses it to explain the state of Israel in peaceful oblivion to the threat of the Northern Coalition (Bill calls them the outer ring of enemies) poised to invade in Ezek 38. Most scholars feel that Russia, Turkey, Iran as well as Ethiopia/Sudan and Libya/North Africa are the main players but there is also the mention of "and many peoples with thee" that critics of Psalm 83 say could include the inner ring.



This is one of the things that makes it impossible to have this current war in Israel be Psalm 83 because Jordan and Egypt have been acting as friends of Israel, Jordan going to the effort of shooting down some of the missiles from Iran, as did Saudi Arabia.

Something happens to make Israel oblivious to that invasion of Ezek 38. Is it Ps 83 or is it as Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum says (@Tall Timbers has a thread up that quotes Dr F on that topic exactly) that Israel is dwelling without due care and attention having come back from some war?

I look at these scriptures to provide a possible solution or an enhanced view of the Psalm 83 war if it is a prophecy. It certainly dovetails. We could leave Psalm 83 out of it altogether with these next 3 passages and still have a good explanation of why Ezek 38 has Israel in such a complacent state, not worried about invasion. Because if they do defeat the inner ring especially Syria/Damascus that could be the trigger for Ezek 38.

Isaiah 17- we all know it, its the destruction of Damascus. I don't think we are here by then or by Ezek 38 because of the way God's attention has turned to Israel as His focus.

Ezekiel 32 but only from v 17-32 because there is a time division starting at v 17. The prophet deals with Egypt in 1-16 but then is given a separate prophecy starting from v 17. That includes: Egypt, Assyria, ELAM!!!! aka Iran but the south western shores and up into modern Iraq. Meshek and Tubal are there, they are in modern Turkey. The "Princes of the North" are there (a bit fuzzy on who they are) and finally the Sidonians, who are part of modern day Lebanon.

Jeremiah 49 but not the inclusion of v28-33 with Kedar and Hazor, that was fulfilled in the past with Babylon. That includes Ammon (northern Jordan) Edom (southern Jordan) Damascus and ELAM again. The Elam and Damascus elements seem to fit with Ezek 32:24-25 and Isaiah 17.


Isaiah and Jeremiah above both include Damascus

Jeremiah and Ezekiel include Elam

Ezekiel includes Assyria (think modern day Syria, which includes Damascus), it covers Elam (modern day south west Iran and up into Iraq) so I think of it as my key to the puzzle.

If you draw 3 circles that intersect, they include bits of the whole puzzle. Each one has 2 out of the 3 essential elements.


Starting here:

Ezekiel 32: 17-32. Egypt is the reluctant player here. All these nations are tied together by terrorism but Egypt is mentioned 3 times across the whole prophecy, beginning middle and end. So Egypt plays an important role in some way. Terrorism is the other common theme. I'll bold areas to pay close attention to.

Ezek 32: 17-32
17 It came to pass also in the twelfth year, on the fifteenth day of the month, that the word of the Lord came to me, saying:


18 “Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt,
And cast them down to the depths of the earth,
Her and the daughters of the famous nations,
With those who go down to the Pit:
19 ‘Whom do you surpass in beauty?
Go down, be placed with the uncircumcised.’

20 “They shall fall in the midst of those slain by the sword;
She is delivered to the sword,
Drawing her and all her multitudes.
21 The strong among the mighty
Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell
With those who help him:
‘They have gone down,
They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’

22 “Assyria is there, and all her company,
With their graves all around her,
All of them slain, fallen by the sword.
23 Her graves are set in the recesses of the Pit,
And her company is all around her grave,
All of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Who caused terror in the land of the living.

24 “There is Elam and all her multitude,
All around her grave,
All of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth,
Who caused their terror in the land of the living;
Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.
25 They have set her bed in the midst of the slain,
With all her multitude,
With her graves all around it,
All of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword;
Though their terror was caused
In the land of the living,
Yet they bear their shame
With those who go down to the Pit;
It was put in the midst of the slain.

26 “There are Meshech and Tubal and all their multitudes,
With all their graves around it,
All of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword,
Though they caused their terror in the land of the living.

27 They do not lie with the mighty
Who are fallen of the uncircumcised,
Who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war;
They have laid their swords under their heads,
But their iniquities will be on their bones,
Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
28 Yes, you shall be broken in the midst of the uncircumcised,
And lie with those slain by the sword.

29 “There is Edom,
Her kings and all her princes,
Who despite their might
Are laid beside those slain by the sword;
They shall lie with the uncircumcised,
And with those who go down to the Pit.

30 There are the princes of the north,
All of them, and all the Sidonians,
Who have gone down with the slain
In shame at the terror which they caused by their might;
They lie uncircumcised with those slain by the sword,
And bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.

31 “Pharaoh will see them
And be comforted over all his multitude,
Pharaoh and all his army,
Slain by the sword,”
Says the Lord God.

32 “For I have caused My terror in the land of the living;
And he shall be placed in the midst of the uncircumcised
With those slain by the sword,
Pharaoh and all his multitude,”
Says the Lord God.


My thoughts:
Notice the refrain of slain by the sword/fallen by the sword. Egypt is somehow comforted that though she lies dead, she has company. That implies that she didn't directly cause this act of war that has them all slain. Egypt has done wrong, and she's being punished but there are other nations here.

Notice the refrain of terror caused by their might, in the land of the living (Assyria-Syria/Iraq, Elam-SW Iran, Meschech & Tubal- Turkey, Princes of the North, Sidonians -Lebanon) But not Jordan or Egypt.

Notice who isn't part of the conflict but seemingly killed because of it (Egypt, Edom-ie Southern Jordan and Meschek and Tubal -ie Turkey)

V18 the "daughters" (descendants?) of the famous nations (probably these nations mentioned here) which would explain why Jordan and Egypt seem drawn into a conflict they didn't want. Right now they are somewhat friendly to Israel.

V20 Egypt falls but she isn't weilding the sword. She falls as a result of the sword being "delivered TO the sword". But v 32 explains that GOD has caused the ultimate terror and placed Egypt in the grave.

V 23 Assyria which is modern day Syria and parts of Iraq is called out for causing terror in the land of the living.

v 24 and 25 we come to the HEART OF THE MATTER. Elam. South Western Iran. Not only does she fall by the sword, but she bears SHAME for it, and it's repeated TWICE. This is very significant. I think that might imply that Elam is at the heart of the problem.

V 26&28 we see modern day Turkey in Meschech and Tubal. Now this one gets mentioned TWICE for causing terror in the land of the living, but no shame attached. Something ODD here. Turkey doesn't go down with the mighty, but instead seems to have been caught off guard, sleeping with their weapons under them. In contrast with the mighty who go down with their weapons in hand. Then this bit explains why they were caught up in this "But their iniquities will be on their bones, Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living." Guilty as charged of terrorism. I have thoughts about what happens to Turkey when Damascus blows. She's possibly caught unaware, and downwind of the fallout whatever that might be.

V 29 Edom is southern Jordan and she doesn't seem to be a combatant, but caught in the crossfire, much like Egypt.

V 30 puts Sidon (south central Lebanon on the coast) and the "Princes of the North" together. They are in shame, because of their terrorism which they directly caused because of their might. Leaving the Princes of the North, focus on Lebanon here, because this current conflict, the Israelis mention that Hezbollah out of Lebanon is a far bigger, better armed threat than Gaza has been with Hamas. Might. They have it. Iran gave it to them. Princes of the North I think might be the Russians in Syria for reasons I'll explain later.

V 31&32 is God speaking, and He is the one causing HIS Terror here - in the land of the living. He places Pharoah in the grave. But Pharoah ruler of Egypt is comforted because of all the others going down in death with him.


I'll unpack the other passages next.

I learn so much from you!

 

[mattfivefour]

Great discussion! Thought provoking.

As an aside, I have always thought of the Ezekiel 38 description of Israel living in peace as being connected to the covenant that the Antichrist makes with them. As a result of his protection, they would no longer have anything to fear because this powerful ruler who (through Satan's power) has gained control of the world has promised them peace and what nation would dare come against them? In this scenario, the peaceful dwelling would occur after the Antichrist is revealed and, therefore, post-Rapture.

 

[Ghoti Ichthus]

I think the Trib starts at the same time as the Rapture, or maybe three days after (assuming the AC gets his head wound same day as the Rapture and the "resurrection" is three days later). I don't think there's much, if any, gap between the Rapture and Tribulation because otherwise those people, who come to faith when the Rapture happens are caught between, and I really think no gap at all). God has always been very clear about what is and is not required of His people.

I think the covenant is signed, first sacrifice in the Third Temple, and Rapture all happen simultaneously or same-day, with the Rapture either the same time or immediately preceding the sacrifice. Since the Trib is dealing with Israel, who will reinstate ceremonial law, I don't think the Church and ceremonial law in the Temple can coexist, even though Salvation is still by faith in Christ alone, in accordance with Scripture alone, by the Grace of God alone, to the Glory of God alone.

I am not a prophet(ess), nor do I have any special revelation. This is just what seems to make the most sense to me.

Regardless, I'm not going to be here




JESUS!!!

 

[Margery]

Here's Jeremiah 49 and the one part in there, about Kedar and Hazor was specifically fulfilled in the past with Nebuchadnezzar. As it states. The rest some Bible teachers say was all in the past, others think there are future fulfillments yet to come. Bill Salus pulls this passage in to give another look at this prediction for Elam in his book on the subject.

As always this is just me speculating, thinking over these scriptures and giving my opinion. I am a retired RN not a theologian. But I get excited when I see something in there that I haven't noticed before. Like with the timing of Isaiah 17. That bit about the foreign plants might NOT be the covenant with the AC- I'm speculating that it is because it fits. However it wouldn't be the first time I've leapt to a conclusion and was wrong and had to change my mind.

Bible study in prophecy is very like a giant jig saw puzzle. You see something, it might fit, you get excited, it sort of fits, and then you find out later, you have to go back, pull that almost fitting piece out, and try something else. I'm sharing my excitement with the study of the Word, but I don't want anybody thinking I actually know what I'm doing here. I'm an enthusiastic amateur. So take me with a LARGE GRAIN OF SALT HERE!

Ok here's the chapter: NKJV And as above I will bold some parts for discussion below. Also Amman the capital of Jordan is in the north where the Ammonites lived. Moab is in the centre and Edom is in the south of Jordan. Think M for MOAB and MIDDLE.

Against the Ammonites.

Thus says the Lord:

“Has Israel no sons?
Has he no heir?
Why then does Milcom inherit Gad,
And his people dwell in its cities?
2 Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
“That I will cause to be heard an alarm of war
In Rabbah of the Ammonites;
It shall be a desolate mound,
And her villages shall be burned with fire.
Then Israel shall take possession of his inheritance,” says the Lord.

3 “Wail, O Heshbon, for Ai is plundered!
Cry, you daughters of Rabbah,
Gird yourselves with sackcloth!
Lament and run to and fro by the walls;
For Milcom shall go into captivity
With his priests and his princes together.
4 Why do you boast in the valleys,
Your flowing valley, O backsliding daughter?
Who trusted in her treasures, saying,
‘Who will come against me?’
5 Behold, I will bring fear upon you,”
Says the Lord God of hosts,
“From all those who are around you;
You shall be driven out, everyone headlong,
And no one will gather those who wander off.
6 But afterward I will bring back
The captives of the people of Ammon,” says the Lord.

Judgment on Edom​

7 Against Edom.

Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Is wisdom no more in Teman?
Has counsel perished from the prudent?
Has their wisdom vanished?
8 Flee, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan!
For I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him,
The time that I will punish him.
9 If grape-gatherers came to you,
Would they not leave some gleaning grapes?
If thieves by night,
Would they not destroy until they have enough?
10 But I have made Esau bare;
I have uncovered his secret places,
And he shall not be able to hide himself.
His descendants are plundered,
His brethren and his neighbors,
And he is no more.
11 Leave your fatherless children,
I will preserve them alive;
And let your widows trust in Me.”

12 For thus says the Lord: “Behold, those whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunk. And are you the one who will altogether go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, but you shall surely drink of it. 13 For I have sworn by Myself,” says the Lord, “that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse. And all its cities shall be perpetual wastes.”


14 I have heard a message from the Lord,
And an ambassador has been sent to the nations:
“Gather together, come against her,
And rise up to battle!

15 “For indeed, I will make you small among nations,
Despised among men.
16 Your fierceness has deceived you,
The pride of your heart,
O you who dwell in the clefts of the rock,
Who hold the height of the hill!
Though you make your nest as high as the eagle,
I will bring you down from there,” says the Lord.

17 “Edom also shall be an astonishment;
Everyone who goes by it will be astonished
And will hiss at all its plagues.
18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah
And their neighbors,” says the Lord,
“No one shall remain there,
Nor shall a son of man dwell in it.

19 “Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplain of the Jordan
Against the dwelling place of the strong;
But I will suddenly make him run away from her.
And who is a chosen man that I may appoint over her?
For who is like Me?
Who will arraign Me?
And who is that shepherd
Who will withstand Me?”

20 Therefore hear the counsel of the Lord that He has taken against Edom,
And His purposes that He has proposed against the inhabitants of Teman:
Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out;
Surely He shall make their dwelling places desolate with them.
21 The earth shakes at the noise of their fall;
At the cry its noise is heard at the Red Sea.
22 Behold, He shall come up and fly like the eagle,
And spread His wings over Bozrah;
The heart of the mighty men of Edom in that day shall be
Like the heart of a woman in birth pangs.

Judgment on Damascus​

23 Against Damascus.

“Hamath and Arpad are shamed,
For they have heard bad news.
They are fainthearted;
There is trouble on the sea;
It cannot be quiet.
24 Damascus has grown feeble;
She turns to flee,
And fear has seized her.
Anguish and sorrows have taken her like a woman in labor.

25 Why is the city of praise not deserted, the city of My joy?

26 Therefore her young men shall fall in her streets,
And all the men of war shall be cut off in that day,” says the Lord of hosts.
27 “I will kindle a fire in the wall of Damascus,
And it shall consume the palaces of Ben-Hadad.”

Judgment on Kedar and Hazor​

28 Against Kedar and against the kingdoms of Hazor, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon shall strike.

Thus says the Lord:

“Arise, go up to Kedar,
And devastate the men of the East!
29 Their tents and their flocks they shall take away.
They shall take for themselves their curtains,
All their vessels and their camels;
And they shall cry out to them,
‘Fear is on every side!’

30 “Flee, get far away! Dwell in the depths,
O inhabitants of Hazor!” says the Lord.
“For Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has taken counsel against you,
And has conceived a plan against you.

31 “Arise, go up to the wealthy nation that dwells securely,” says the Lord,
“Which has neither gates nor bars,
Dwelling alone.
32 Their camels shall be for booty,
And the multitude of their cattle for plunder.
I will scatter to all winds those in the farthest corners,
And I will bring their calamity from all its sides,” says the Lord.
33 “Hazor shall be a dwelling for jackals, a desolation forever;
No one shall reside there,
Nor son of man dwell in it.”

Judgment on Elam​

34 The word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet against Elam, in the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying, 35 “Thus says the Lord of hosts:

‘Behold, I will break the bow of Elam,
The foremost of their might.

36 Against Elam I will bring the four winds
From the four quarters of heaven,
And scatter them toward all those winds;
There shall be no nations where the outcasts of Elam will not go.

37 For I will cause Elam to be dismayed before their enemies
And before those who seek their life.
I will bring disaster upon them,
My fierce anger,’ says the Lord;
‘And I will send the sword after them
Until I have consumed them.

38 I will set My throne in Elam,
And will destroy from there the king and the princes,’ says the Lord.

39 ‘But it shall come to pass in the latter days:
I will bring back the captives of Elam,’ says the Lord.”



comments:

V 1 Milcom is one of the gods of the Ammonites, a form of Baal, and may be the same as Molech.

v 2 Rabbah is now called AMMAN Jordan, it's the capital of Jordan!

TIME STAMP ALERT in V 2: When did Israel possess almost all of modern northern Jordan EAST of the Jordan River? That is the land of Gad. It includes Amman to the south and extends north to the southern shore of the sea of Galilee. Here's where I see this as a yet future prophecy.

V3 Ai is in the "West Bank" area west of Jericho while Heshbon is 20 miles east of the Jordan river as it enters the Dead Sea or in Jordan itself. The so called "West Bank" was named because when Jordan invaded Israel in 1948 they took that territory and renamed it the West Bank. It is in the heartland of Israel, the ancient territory of Judea and Samaria. So here we see something devastates Jordan because an area of the West Bank is plundered.

V 6 sounds like it's referring to the Millennial Reign when the believers from Ammon will be brought back to their place, something the Lord says to Elam as well in v 39.


The Judgment of Edom v 7-22 I'm leaving alone for now (I need to study further). It seems like part is in the past, part may be future. Verse 9 has echoes of Isaiah 17 with the grapes and gleanings. Verse 11 looks to a day when the widows and orphans of Edom believe in Christ, I think in the Millennium. Verse 19-22 may fit the end of the Tribulation with God acting as the Shepherd. The area of Petra is known as the Sheepfold, and it's Bosrah. Petra is it's Greek name, Bosrah means Sheepfold. Teman is modern day Ma'an which is the city nearest Petra. It was the capital of Edom. I'll give the passages I'm looking at to compare with so you can see where I'm headed.

It's prophesied in Micah 2:12 here as one of several indicators that God will protect his people during the last half of the Trib in Bosrah.
12 “I will surely gather all of you, Jacob;
I will surely bring together the remnant of Israel.
I will bring them together like sheep in a pen,
like a flock in its pasture;
the place will throng with people.
13 The One who breaks open the way will go up before them;
they will break through the gate and go out.
Their King will pass through before them,
the Lord at their head.”

Isaiah 63:1 says this and it's decidedly our Lord coming to rescue His people at the end of the Trib
Who is this coming from Edom,
from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson?
Who is this, robed in splendor,
striding forward in the greatness of his strength?
“It is I, proclaiming victory,
mighty to save.”

2 Why are your garments red,
like those of one treading the winepress?

3 “I have trodden the winepress alone;
from the nations no one was with me.
I trampled them in my anger
and trod them down in my wrath;
their blood spattered my garments,
and I stained all my clothing.
4 It was for me the day of vengeance;
the year for me to redeem had come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help,
I was appalled that no one gave support;
so my own arm achieved salvation for me,
and my own wrath sustained me.
6 I trampled the nations in my anger;
in my wrath I made them drunk
and poured their blood on the ground.”

Back to Jeremiah, skipping Kedar and Hazor verses 28-33 because they were fulfilled in the past by Nebuchadnezzar as the text states.

V 23-27 The Judgment of Damascus which seems like a companion to Isaiah 17 and possibly also Amos 1.

v 23 Hamath and Arpad. Hamath is Hama and is a large city north of Damascus. Arpad is on the outskirts of Aleppo which is north again of Hama and Damascus. They run in a straightish line on the main highway going North to Turkey from Damacus. Arpad/Aleppo is just south of the border with Turkey.

IF (it's a big if, because I'm speculating here) that this passage in Jeremiah is the same event as Isaiah 17 then we could be looking at some very good details.

This is why I think that if these 2 passages, Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 32 are related, then this could be why Turkey is caught unprepared in Ezek 32 when the Damascus event destroys Damascus. I think it comes from the sea (Israeli submarine launch of something???) maybe.

V 23 says there is trouble on the sea. Damascus isn't on the sea coast by the way, Lebanon is between Damascus and the sea.

BUT Hama/Hamath is where Syria starts to have a sea coast, just north and east of Tripoli in Lebanon actually. In between Hamath/Hama and Arpad/Aleppo to their west is the port of Latakia, a MAJOR RUSSIAN STRONGHOLD.

V 24 Damascus turns to flee and here's another mention of birth pains. She's caught like a woman in labour.

V 25 IS SUPER IMPORTANT. The verses above and below refer to Damascus. The city of praise, not deserted, the city of God's joy is JERUSALEM. This is the heart of the issue, the reason for what's happening. God uses contrast here between Damascus and Jerusalem.

V 26 is the THEREFORE. Meaning what is happening to Damascus is happening because of something Damascus was trying to do to Jerusalem.

v 26 continues ALL the men of war shall be cut off in that day says the Lord of hosts. God is cutting them all off. Sure sounds like Isaiah 17 to me. And there's that phrase "in that day" which so often refers to the Tribulation - Jacob's Trouble, the Day of the Lord, the Day of Vengeance of our God.

V 27 I take to mean the wall of Damascus and it's palaces - the Govt systems and buildings and or the homes of the leader/s.


Moving on to Elam again- the ancient area that is now south western Iran on the sea coast, and stretching up along the mountain range in the border region of Iraq.

V 35 Bill Salus points out that a bow launches weapons, and this is described as the foremost of their might. I think he's right in drawing a connection to their missile launchers and the missiles aimed at Israel. Bill also points out that God is extremely angry with Elam for something they are doing, and now that they can reach Israel with their missiles (and drones for that matter) flying objects of destruction -- that this is what would make God angry enough to deal out this kind of punishment. They've threatened Israel's life.

v 36 Bill looks at nuclear fallout that scatters the outcasts of Elam, the refugees fleeing for their lives. They go to the 4 corners of the earth in our idiomatic expression, here the 4 quarters of heaven, 4 winds. 4 is a biblical number of completion, this is a complete scattering.

V 37 Ask if this was today, WHO are the enemies of Elam (Iran)? Who would be so angry as to want to end their lives? Not America. Not Europe. Saudi Arabia, Jordan, even Turkey maybe, but Iran doesn't fear them. Who does Iran fear enough to continually try to eradicate? Israel. And who alone among the nations of the world if attacked would the Lord respond with FIERCE ANGER? again, Israel. So I think Bill is right, this conflict that so enrages God is something that Iran plans to eradicate the nation of Israel.

He God sends the sword after them (not the innocent Iranians, but those whose hearts are filled with antisemitic hatred) and He consumes them. This doesn't refer to the whole nation of Iran, but only one portion of Iran, the south western part.

V 38 is an idiom that was used in that area. When a king conquered, he would set up his throne in the middle of the conquered nation, in the capitol, often bringing the kings and princes before him to be slaughtered. That is the picture here. I know I used to think that meant that Jesus would have an alternate throne in Iran and that was like a comfort to Iran. A lot of Bible teachers teach that. But I was listening to Michael Heiser one day (I think it was him anyway) and he explained the habit of the kings in that day and in that region.

It was the way those conquering kings put an end to all hopes of a future revival of the kingdom that just got smashed. The Lord putting an end to the Shia plans to slaughter His people Israel. For once and for all.

V 39 however IS hope for Iran and the captives of Elam- those from that area who trust in Him. In this case I think it's referring to Jesus in the Millennial kingdom restoring the believers from that area into their former homeland.

Overall this chapter is dealing with the current enemies of Israel, those who have tried to take her land and her life in the past like Jordan who may yet turn on Israel again, Damascus who is actively involved against Israel, and Elam, part of Iran, and Iran is very involved against Israel.

There are too many references inside this chapter with all but the Kedar Hazor bit, that put these in the yet future category.

I think it's interesting that Jeremiah 49 and Ezekiel 32 both mention Elam, - a distinct area of Iran but Ezekiel 38 mentions Persia which is all of Iran in Ezekiel 38. So when Ezekiel is in chapter 32 it's Elam he's aiming at, while chapter 38 is Persia or Iran as it's now called, which is the whole nation.

Persia as a nation is still around for Ezekiel 38, but her genocidal hopes to destroy Israel are dashed, at least using her bow, the foremost of her might out of Elam her southwestern area

Ezek 38 mentions the motive of plunder or spoil, which means theft. At least as far as the other nations who question the leader of the alliance, Gog of Magog. Have you come to seek plunder?? they ask.

Revenge, more attempts at genocide may be on the minds and hearts but as far as the world is concerned they think Russia, Turkey, Iran and the others are after spoil, plunder and booty.

A nice puzzle.

 

[Anastacia]

I have my Bible, notebook, and a quiet house-- ready to do tonight's study on this discussion!

 

[Andy C]

assuming the AC gets his head wound same day as the Rapture and the "resurrection" is three days later)

If the events in the book of Revelation are in chronological order, which I believe they are, then the beast gets his “mortal” wound at the mid point of the 7 year tribulation as written in Revelation 13.