Ezekiel 38 and Psalm 83: Relationship and Timing

[1LoverofGod]

** Note:​

The article is in very small print due to the format of all the articles in the website of The Pre Tribulation Research Center.
Suggestion:
If you want to read larger print and you are using a cell phone you can widen the screen with your fingers to enlarge the print. Using a laptop or desktop PC you can use your magnifying tool.

(Good article for the current conflict in Israel.)​

The Psalm 83 Prophecy​

TIMING & RELATIONSHIP To MAGOG​

(A prelude to, or, a part of, the Magog Invasion?)​

Bible Prophecy as Written Ministries

Psalm 83 is a prophecy which best fits into the 2 great wars of the End Time—Magog (refers in this paper to Eze. 38 & 39) and Armageddon. These 2 wars (the first Magog, and the last Armageddon) are separated by at least 7 years. God’s direct defeat of the Magog-Islamic forces as they invade Israel ignites the global “nation against nation” (Mat. 24:9), essentially World War III—the whole process giving rise to the Antichrist and terminating with Armageddon.

The 2 Great Wars​

Bible prophecy emphasizes Magog and Armageddon, but mentions “nation against nation,” “kings of the north & south,” and other wars. Chronologically, Magog begins the End Time 7-year period, and Armageddon climaxes it. The other “wars” link Magog and Armageddon into one long process—Magog gives rise to World War 3, including various Mideast wars, the Antichrist ascends to global power, & then heads to Armageddon.

However, a scenario for Psalm 83 (referred to in this paper as the Psalm 83 Theory) has been proposed in a number of books and on several websites that essentially goes like this:

Read full article:

Ezekiel 38 and Psalm 83: Relationship and Timing - by Phillip Goodman - The Pre-Trib Research Center

Ezekiel 38 & Psalm 83 - Psalm 83 is a prophecy which best fits into the 2 great wars of the End Time—Magog (refers in this paper to Eze. 38 & 39) and Armageddon. These 2 wars (the first Magog, and the last Armageddon) are separated by at least 7 years. God’s direct defeat of the Magog-Islamic...

www.pre-trib.org

 

[Andy C]

Way too long of a read for me, but what I did read looked good.

I lean towards Psalm 83 being an actual war, which could be in the making now. However, Im not 100 percent sure its not just a prayer. Time will tell.

 

[spartan sprinter]

I'm in the same boat Andy, if it's an actual war, Egypt and Jordan have to turn on Israel because i think they're supposed to be in that list of psalm 83 enemies

 

[Kaatje]

I found this overview (from TCC on JDF):

Psalm 83 lists the following countries:

• Lebanon
• Syria
• Jordan
• Iraq
• Palestine
• Egypt
• Saudi Arabia

Isreali Friendly Nations Right Now Are the Following:

• Jordan
• Egypt
• Saudi Arabia

Therefore, in order for what we see happening today to be the Psalm 83 war, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi-Arabia will have to turn against Israel. This is highly unlikely.

Iran was not included in Psalm 83. Yet, Iran is THE MAJOR agressor today. Therefore, this does not look like the Psalm 83 war.

 

[spartan sprinter]

I found this overview (from TCC on JDF):

Psalm 83 lists the following countries:

• Lebanon
• Syria
• Jordan
• Iraq
• Palestine
• Egypt
• Saudi Arabia

Isreali Friendly Nations Right Now Are the Following:

• Jordan
• Egypt
• Saudi Arabia

Therefore, in order for what we see happening today to be the Psalm 83 war, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi-Arabia will have to turn against Israel. This is highly unlikely.

Iran was not included in Psalm 83. Yet, Iran is THE MAJOR agressor today. Therefore, this does not look like the Psalm 83 war.

Both you and Marge are gems with your detialed responses

 

[Almost Heaven]

I'm not convinced there is a Psalm 83 war. I'm more in the camp of if there was one it occured in 1948.

 

[Margery]

I found this overview (from TCC on JDF):

Psalm 83 lists the following countries:

• Lebanon
• Syria
• Jordan
• Iraq
• Palestine
• Egypt
• Saudi Arabia

Isreali Friendly Nations Right Now Are the Following:

• Jordan
• Egypt
• Saudi Arabia

Therefore, in order for what we see happening today to be the Psalm 83 war, Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi-Arabia will have to turn against Israel. This is highly unlikely.

Iran was not included in Psalm 83. Yet, Iran is THE MAJOR agressor today. Therefore, this does not look like the Psalm 83 war.

BINGO!

This is shaping up much more like Ezekiel 32 v 17 - 32. That situation starts due to terrorism-- with a solid link to Iran

the list starts with Egypt who seems like an unwilling participant who ends up on the losing side and is comforted learning that Elam (south western Iran) is also severely injured.

It includes Assyria (for all intents and purposes look to Syria and western Iraq for the modern equivalent)-- directly involved in terrorism

Elam (south west Iran) is given a large description again, involved in terrorism, looking like possibly the principal cause

Turkey (Meshek and Tubal) but there is an odd comment that suggests they were caught by surprise but were also involved in spreading terror.

Egypt doesn't escape (v 17-21 and again 28 and 31-32) and her leader Pharoah is singled out for comment in v 28 & 31-3232

Edom (southern Jordan, Petra area)-- unusual for this passage, not connected to terror.

Princes of the North (unspecified) in conjunction with Lebanon next

Sidonians-- see Lebanon also mentioned as terrorists


Finally Egypt gets a third mention in v 31-32


Egypt is interesting she looks like an unwilling participant, doesn't escape. v 28 suggests that the leader of Egypt dies while v 32 states Egypt's leader Pharoah also participated in terror (in the past?)but it's an odd thread with Egypt in this passage. She ties it all together, but the main terrorists appear to be Assyria (Syria and Iraq), Elam (Iran), Turkey, Lebanon and the odd mention of Princes of the North unspecified. The biggest terrorism mentions occur with Elam (south west Iran)

Southern Jordan as Edom is mentioned as being harmed, in spite of their power they die too. NO mention of terrorism there.

Egypt’s Descent Into the Realm of the Dead​

17 In the twelfth year, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me: 18 “Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and consign to the earth below both her and the daughters of mighty nations, along with those who go down to the pit. 19 Say to them, ‘Are you more favored than others? Go down and be laid among the uncircumcised.’ 20 They will fall among those killed by the sword. The sword is drawn; let her be dragged off with all her hordes. 21 From within the realm of the dead the mighty leaders will say of Egypt and her allies, ‘They have come down and they lie with the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.’


22 “Assyria is there with her whole army; she is surrounded by the graves of all her slain, all who have fallen by the sword. 23 Their graves are in the depths of the pit and her army lies around her grave. All who had spread terror in the land of the living are slain, fallen by the sword.


24 “Elam is there, with all her hordes around her grave. All of them are slain, fallen by the sword. All who had spread terror in the land of the living went down uncircumcised to the earth below. They bear their shame with those who go down to the pit. 25 A bed is made for her among the slain, with all her hordes around her grave. All of them are uncircumcised, killed by the sword. Because their terror had spread in the land of the living, they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit; they are laid among the slain.


26 “Meshek and Tubal are there, with all their hordes around their graves. All of them are uncircumcised, killed by the sword because they spread their terror in the land of the living. 27 But they do not lie with the fallen warriors of old, who went down to the realm of the dead with their weapons of war—their swords placed under their heads and their shields resting on their bones—though these warriors also had terrorized the land of the living.


28 “You too, Pharaoh, will be broken and will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword.


29 “Edom is there, her kings and all her princes; despite their power, they are laid with those killed by the sword. They lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to the pit.


30 “All the princes of the north and all the Sidonians are there; they went down with the slain in disgrace despite the terror caused by their power. They lie uncircumcised with those killed by the sword and bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.


31 “Pharaoh—he and all his army—will see them and he will be consoled for all his hordes that were killed by the sword, declares the Sovereign Lord. 32 Although I had him spread terror in the land of the living, Pharaoh and all his hordes will be laid among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

 

[Margery]

I have several passages all of which might play into this current situation either as this war morphs into something prophetic or setting the stage for future prophetic events.

Before the screwdriver that I stuck into Isaiah falls out, I will simply list them in no particular order. I have a lot of markers in my Bible, and the markers in Isaiah and Ezekiel have the lists I want to refer to. Hence George's screwdriver from his computer desk which is sitting in Isaiah 17 where the other master list sits

the other interesting passages:

Jeremiah 49 which brings together a bunch of participants and it's one of the parallel passages that mentions Isaiah 17 Damascus destruction AND the above destruction of Elam in south west Iran. (v 34-39)

This is one reason why I consider the above passage Ezekiel 32:17-32 in the same grouping and time period as Isaiah 17 --yet future to our time (although some good prominent theologians differ and place it in the past). I've read Bill Salus' rebuttal to that criticism and I agree with Bill-- it's yet future. And Bill has some good points in why Kedar and Hazor were in the past in Jeremiah 49 but the rest is yet future. (confused yet?) I put all three passages together because they all mention either the Damascus destruction or the Elam one. I think they are connected.


Obadiah- the whole book. It's all about Edom, which if you consider it isn't just southern Jordan, but the "tents of Edom" may also refer to the Jordanian migrants who populated the Arabic muslim enclaves in Gaza and the so called West Bank aka Judea and Samaria, taken by Jordan in '48 and reclaimed by Israel in '67 and the site of many "refugees" that the UN still panders to.

Isaiah 17 (got the screwdriver out of my Bible now) refers to the destruction of Damascus, but is also referenced in Jeremiah 49:23-27

Amos 1:3-5 has always struck me as possibly part of the Damascus destruction both in the past, but perhaps also yet future. Just because it was partially fulfilled in the past doesn't mean a future fulfillment isn't coming.


Think about Antiochus Epiphanes mentioned in Daniel 11 who actually never had a historical covenant with Israel-- but he foreshadows a future fulfillment of another one who will desecrate the future Temple (and he DOES have a covenant) Barry Setterfield, a friend of Chuck Missler pointed that out once, and I never forgot it. Just dropping that in here for a future rabbit trail.

Zech 9:1-8 and this is most interesting because it's mentioned just before the passage about the 2 comings of the Lord in chapter 9:9-17. This passage (if it's yet future and refers to the Destruction of Damascus in our time) MENTIONS LEBANON as Tyre and Sidon, Ashkelon and GAZA. BUT I tend to think this one WAS fulfilled in the past. The few bits that seem to belong in a future fulfillment are ambigous at best. Chapter 12 is very definitely future- the end of the Tribulation but I'm not sure if chapter 9:1-8 belongs in the past or in the time just before Christ's second coming.

_______________________________


Leaving my more questionable additions look at the main 3 and their participants for a moment:

Isaiah 17 DAMASCUS and this speaks of a sudden overnight destruction. Seemingly they do something and the children of Israel (IDF?) do something that causes the complete destruction of the oldest inhabited city in the world.

Ezekiel 32:17-32 EGYPT, ASSYRIA (Syria and Iraq), ELAM (south west Iran), MESHEK and TUBAL (modern Turkey), EDOM (south Jordan), PRINCES OF THE NORTH??? (not certain but Russia possibly or Turkey or points in between like Ukraine???) and finally THE SIDONIANS (Lebanon)

all with a common theme of TERRORISM that causes the deaths of these armies and maybe the leader of Egypt too AND Egypt looks like a former terror exporter, who got caught somehow in the conflict and suffers too. Turkey is a terrorist but doesn't seem to have time to grab it's weapons and fight, they simply get hit. Jordan is the only one not involved in terrorism but the south (Edom) gets hit. SYRIA is involved here. Not just Damascus.

Jeremiah 49 AMMON (v 1-6 Northern Jordan around the city of Amman Jordan), EDOM (v 7-22 Southern Jordan by Petra), DAMASCUS (v 23-27 modern Syria and Damascus- it specifically mentions 2 areas that are modern provinces in northern Syria near Damascus) (leave out Kedar and Hazor, they were specifically attacked by the king of Babylon as this states and fulfilled in the past), ELAM (v 34-39, modern day south western Iran)

Looking closely at ELAM in these passages, Ezekiel points out their connection with terror in a much stronger message than the other terrorist groups mentioned. Is Iran (Elam) the key? I think so. I think Jordan and Egypt get caught in the crossfire somehow. Turkey doesn't have time to defend itself.

Looking at the current situation we have: Damascus, Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan north and south, as well as a significant portion of Iran (not all of it) Which is important because Iran as Persia will show up later in Ezek 38- the Gog Magog event.

I think this might mean a closer group of enemies, much like Bill Salus talks of in Psalm 83, but a little more clear in terms of what might be shaping up in the near future. Psalm 83 does have a lot of the same participants but I think of it as a maybe prophecy. Maybe it will fit with these 3 main passages and people groups, maybe. It would explain the presence of Egypt and Jordan in Psalm 83 but due to the friendly stance of Saudi Arabia in the Abraham accords talks, and Saudi Arabia showing up as Sheba and Dedan in Ezek 38 Gog and Magog, I kind of think Psalm 83 might not belong as a prophecy, while these 3 I mention might be a better fit.


In Jeremiah this is what God says of Elam thru Jeremiah-- Bill Salus wrote a whole book on this passage and I think he is right about this IF it is future and Bill points out compelling reasons why this was NOT fulfilled in the past. I picked up an interesting tidbit on v 38-- this was what the ancient kings would do after destroying a nation, they would set their thrones up on the central ruins of the conquered territory and destroy their king and officials in the sight of all. V39 is a promise of redemption.

A Message About Elam​

34 This is the word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet concerning Elam, early in the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah:


35 This is what the Lord Almighty says:

“See, I will break the bow of Elam,
the mainstay of their might.

36 I will bring against Elam the four winds
from the four quarters of heaven;
I will scatter them to the four winds,
and there will not be a nation
where Elam’s exiles do not go.

37 I will shatter Elam before their foes,
before those who want to kill them;
I will bring disaster on them,
even my fierce anger,”
declares the Lord.
“I will pursue them with the sword
until I have made an end of them.

38 I will set my throne in Elam
and destroy her king and officials,”
declares the Lord.

39 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.

 

[Margery]

and that in a nutshell is why I tend not to see Psalm 83 as literal prophecy IF we are looking at Sheba and Dedan as Saudi Arabia.

Because Sheba and Dedan show up in Ezek 38 which I think happens AFTER Isaiah 17 .

If the other 2 passages Ezek 32:17-32 and Jeremiah 49 are linked to Isaiah 17 then anyone mentioned in Ezek 38 shouldn't be in the people mentioned in these 3 linked passages. (except Turkey and Iran under special circumstances) But Ps 83 includes the Saudis. Therefore I don't think Psalm 83 is the key or even really belongs as a list of the aggressors in some yet future war.

The 2 keys are Damascus/Syria (mentioned as Damascus in Isaiah 17. & Jeremiah 49 but ALSO AS SYRIA in Ezek 32)

AND

ELAM (Ezek 32 & Jeremiah 49)

These 3 linked passages also explain why Iran takes some type of a hit before Ezek 38-- because ELAM is a huge part of her territory on the south west. BUT she still has a lot of territory in Persia (Iran) that isn't part of Elam and she shows up as Elam in Ezek 32 and Jeremiah 49. Jeremiah explains her nuclear threat to Israel, while Ezek 32 explains her terrorism as a primary motive. By the time of Ezek 38 as Persia, (Iran) she is out for spoil, for theft, for gain. Which makes sense if she was crippled by the loss of Elam and her nuclear ambitions.

Moving back to Saudi Arabia and the willingness to be allied with Israel, this looks a lot like Ezek 38 and the way Sheba and Dedan (often seen as modern Saudi Arabia) would act.

And Jordan and Egypt while they are not super friendly with Israel, they aren't enemies and have cooperated with Israel. Which makes their appearances in the terrorism passage Ezek 32 quite interesting because of the wording given for both. Jordan (Edom) isn't a participant but gets hurt down south in the Petra region plus the capitol region in the north Amman Jordan, and Egypt appears to be drawn in (although a terrorist of sorts-- which they are if you look at the Muslim Brotherhood). I could see Egypt with it's connection to Gaza and the way Qatar and others are supplying Gaza thru that land connection getting drawn into a conflict, siding with the Muslims regardless. That fits with their historical relationship with Israel right back to Jeremiah's time. Unreliable.

Turkey is mentioned in Ezek 32 the terrorism passage but she seems to be unable to mount a response to the speed of the situation-- and THAT would fit with her being just north of Damascus and the 2 provinces specified in Jeremiah 49 which are both between Damascus and Turkey. Damascus disappears forever overnight. It's FAST.

This would also explain why Turkey is such a big participant in the Ezek 38 event-- the main motive is taking spoil in Ezek 38 while the main motive in Ezekiel 32 is Terrorism. Like Iran-- Ezek 32 Elam is involved in export of terror and she gets hit because of it. Elam is part of Iran, and Iran or Persia shows up in Ezek 38 wanting spoil with Russia, and Turkey as the main participants. If the Princes of the North mentioned in Ezek 32 are RUSSIA then we are 3 for 3 with the top 3 major players in Ezek 38 having made an appearance in Ezek 32 involved with Terrorism. By Ezek 38 the motive is Spoil. Which makes sense if they all took a serious hit during the destruction of Damascus.

 

[spartan sprinter]

and that in a nutshell is why I tend not to see Psalm 83 as literal prophecy IF we are looking at Sheba and Dedan as Saudi Arabia.

Because Sheba and Dedan show up in Ezek 38 which I think happens AFTER Isaiah 17 .

If the other 2 passages Ezek 32:17-32 and Jeremiah 49 are linked to Isaiah 17 then anyone mentioned in Ezek 38 shouldn't be in the people mentioned in these 3 linked passages. (except Turkey and Iran under special circumstances) But Ps 83 includes the Saudis. Therefore I don't think Psalm 83 is the key or even really belongs as a list of the aggressors in some yet future war.

The 2 keys are Damascus/Syria (mentioned as Damascus in Isaiah 17. & Jeremiah 49 but ALSO AS SYRIA in Ezek 32)

AND

ELAM (Ezek 32 & Jeremiah 49)

These 3 linked passages also explain why Iran takes some type of a hit before Ezek 38-- because ELAM is a huge part of her territory on the south west. BUT she still has a lot of territory in Persia (Iran) that isn't part of Elam and she shows up as Elam in Ezek 32 and Jeremiah 49. Jeremiah explains her nuclear threat to Israel, while Ezek 32 explains her terrorism as a primary motive. By the time of Ezek 38 as Persia, (Iran) she is out for spoil, for theft, for gain. Which makes sense if she was crippled by the loss of Elam and her nuclear ambitions.

Moving back to Saudi Arabia and the willingness to be allied with Israel, this looks a lot like Ezek 38 and the way Sheba and Dedan (often seen as modern Saudi Arabia) would act.

And Jordan and Egypt while they are not super friendly with Israel, they aren't enemies and have cooperated with Israel. Which makes their appearances in the terrorism passage Ezek 32 quite interesting because of the wording given for both. Jordan (Edom) isn't a participant but gets hurt down south in the Petra region plus the capitol region in the north Amman Jordan, and Egypt appears to be drawn in (although a terrorist of sorts-- which they are if you look at the Muslim Brotherhood). I could see Egypt with it's connection to Gaza and the way Qatar and others are supplying Gaza thru that land connection getting drawn into a conflict, siding with the Muslims regardless. That fits with their historical relationship with Israel right back to Jeremiah's time. Unreliable.

Turkey is mentioned in Ezek 32 the terrorism passage but she seems to be unable to mount a response to the speed of the situation-- and THAT would fit with her being just north of Damascus and the 2 provinces specified in Jeremiah 49 which are both between Damascus and Turkey. Damascus disappears forever overnight. It's FAST.

This would also explain why Turkey is such a big participant in the Ezek 38 event-- the main motive is taking spoil in Ezek 38 while the main motive in Ezekiel 32 is Terrorism. Like Iran-- Ezek 32 Elam is involved in export of terror and she gets hit because of it. Elam is part of Iran, and Iran or Persia shows up in Ezek 38 wanting spoil with Russia, and Turkey as the main participants. If the Princes of the North mentioned in Ezek 32 are RUSSIA then we are 3 for 3 with the top 3 major players in Ezek 38 having made an appearance in Ezek 32 involved with Terrorism. By Ezek 38 the motive is Spoil. Which makes sense if they all took a serious hit during the destruction of Damascus.

I can't remember who brought it up but i found it interesting that Zeph 2 could possibly play out with what is happening with Hamas as well.

I spose we have to wait and see how this will all play out

 

[mattfivefour]

I can't remember who brought it up but i found it interesting that Zeph 2 could possibly play out with what is happening with Hamas as well.

I spose we have to wait and see how this will all play out

Zephaniah 2 is interesting. I never looked at it in that context before.

 

[spartan sprinter]

Zephaniah 2 is interesting. I never looked at it in that context before.

I think specifically it was Zephaniah 2 vs 4 that they a former rf member made mention too, it definitely caught my attention

 

[Kaatje]

Yes, only trouble is that both Ashkelon and Ashdod are Israel territory.
So, unless the "they" are nowadays Hamas, I can't rightly square it.

For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Zephaniah 2:4

 

[Margery]

Yes, only trouble is that both Ashkelon and Ashdod are Israel territory.
So, unless the "they" are nowadays Hamas, I can't rightly square it.

For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Zephaniah 2:4

That could still be a big possibility because Zephaniah is aimed at The Day of the Lord period (chapter 1, chapter 2 near the end and all of chapter 3)

It will depend on the next border of Gaza, but you're right the area of Ashdod is Ashdod, the 6th largest city in Israel. Ashkelon is another pretty good sized Israeli city and Ekron or it's remains is in Israel as well. Gath is the 4rth of the 5 Philistine city states that made up Philistia from the era of King David-- also a ruin within Israel today. Gaza city (and it's surroundings aka Gaza) remain the last of the Philistine 5 not permanently (yet) in Israel's hands. Gaza was forsaken by Israel (who gave it away under pressure from America during 2005)

Chapter 2 starts with a warning before the Day of the Lord begins. To a nation not desired who gathers herself together.

Then details.

Chapter 2 vs 2-7 appear to have happened. Recently. As Israel fought for independence in 1948 Ashkelon in particular was liberated and the Arabs who lived there fled. Ashdod was rebuilt in 1950 out of the sand dunes and Ekron is in the central plain to the east inside Israel proper. Gath's ruins lie near Ekron.

However Gaza remains a problem, the last of the 5 city states of the Philistines.

Gaza City lies on the north end of the Gaza strip. Inside Gaza borders today.

V 7 is important. Judah has returned into Israel and lies down in this area today. So v 1-7 appear to be prior to the Day of the Lord and around the time of Israel's return.


------------------------------

Reading all 3 chapters of Zephaniah show that God is directing attention at Israel and especially Jerusalem during the Day of the Lord.

-------------


Chapter 1: 10 mentions the fish gate. Now I did a look up on that years back and it turns out to describe the ARAB quarter of Jerusalem which is interesting. It was replaced by the more modern Damascus Gate.

Chapter 1 in general seems aimed at Jerusalem in the Day of the Lord (Tribulation)

--------------------------


going on to chapter 2 if v 1 is a continuation then we are looking at an undesired nation -- which in context could go either way but looks more like it's an intrusion into Jewish land by a people group claiming to be a nation. Leaving that aside going on

Ch 2 v 2-7 are definitely a promise to Judah as they come out of captivity back into the land by God's hand, so that suggest the context of v 1 is like Ch 1 v 10 where God mentions intruders with a different religions -Baal- which is related to Islam, Chemarims (false priests), the host of heaven, and Malcham (Milcom) which is related to the origins of Islam btw. Maktesh is a reference to a bowl shaped depression within Jerusalem as best as I can figure out from various resources but can refer to any bowl shaped depression in the earth.

V 8 begins the next section and it's interesting to note that Moab and Jordan (children of Ammon) form the bulk of the "Palestinians" origins (along with some from Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt)


8 I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached my people, and magnified themselves against their border.

9 Therefore as I live, saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.

10 This shall they have for their pride, because they have reproached and magnified themselves against the people of the Lord of hosts.

by v 13-15 the subject turns to Ninevah and Assyria--

13 And he will stretch out his hand against the north, and destroy Assyria; and will make Nineveh a desolation, and dry like a wilderness.

14 And flocks shall lie down in the midst of her, all the beasts of the nations: both the cormorant and the bittern shall lodge in the upper lintels of it; their voice shall sing in the windows; desolation shall be in the thresholds; for he shall uncover the cedar work.

15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.

Which sounds a lot like Babylon of Revelation in the way that city talks. And the desolation.


-----------


then in Ch 3 the focus returns to the city of Jerusalem -- v 4b "her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law." plus the references to the prophets, priests and kings.

The time frame is the Tribulation during which Israel is being refined vs 1-8

and the Millennial Reign of Christ vs 9-20 in which Jerusalem ends up in a time of blessing from the Lord.

It looks like a progression of events--and it seems tied to the Tribulation period in most of Zephaniah except for that unique bit in ch 2 v 1-7 which seems to be present day but have mostly occurred already during 1948 and 2005.

 

[mattfivefour]

Nicely done, Margery.

 

[Margery]

I was focused on Zephaniah again (Gary Stearman had 2 episodes talking about it in relation to the war in Gaza right now- I will give links below in which he is pointing out the link between the word Cherethites which Gesenius -Hebrew language authority - translates as Running Assassins which was fascinating)

BUT then my attention was caught, LOOK AT CHAPTER 2 v 1-3 and I spotted what I think is a Rapture reference in v 3 but also a reference to a "decree" that "brings forth" the day of the Lord. Gary has brought up the Rapture reference in there before, and it's not a new insight, but I was looking at V 2 and the context and saw that decree. Before that decree those who seek rightousness are to Seek the Lord that it may be that ye shall be hid in the day of His anger.

THAT is the RAPTURE. First the righteous seek the Lord, in order to be hidden in that day of the Lord, the Tribulation which doesn't begin AT the Rapture, but the decree brings forth. THAT is really wonderful to see.

Zeph 2:1-3

1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;


2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you.


3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.


And then I focused on the "nation not desired". Gary said this could be Israel- definitely treated as undesirable by the nations and yet the word nation is used and that is the word Goy as Strong's shows here in eSword
gôy gôy

go'ee, go'-ee

Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.



So this undesirable nation that masses together if H1465 is part of the meaning, is a heathen, foreign mass (not unlike a cancer found in the body) and they gather BEFORE the Tribulation starts (before the decree) and ALSO BEFORE the decree comes this OTHER group of meek of the earth, who seek the Lord, and His righteousness who shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger. But that hiding of that group of righteous occurs BEFORE THE DECREE!

Look at the distinction- Group 1 is a heathen undesirable mass of foreigners in Gaza by the context but GROUP 2 SEEKS THE LORD and Zephaniah says it may be ye shall be hid in the Day of the Lord's anger. Israel has contact with both groups.

Gary was making the point that this whole book has to do with Gaza, and it has clues about the Day of the Lord, the timing of things and right here in the middle is a Rapture reference tied to BEFORE THE DECREE BRING FORTH

Love it.

If you want to listen to Gary the podcast with Mondo is here: Gaza's Running Assassins | Prophecy Watchers Radio | Episode 4

and Gary is interviewed here by LA Marzulli. A Hidden Prophecy in Zephaniah | L.A. Marzulli and Gary Stearman and he goes into detail on the Cherethites aka Running Assassins.

I listened to both and he brings out different aspects. Both are well worth listening to, and the bits he repeats are worth it too. Gary Stearman doesn't ramble on and the fact that he's done 2 interviews on the same thing means he thinks it's quite significant.

Whether you agree or not, it's a fun dive into Zephaniah.

I remembered this conversation in this thread and thought people might enjoy it. I'm pretty tired, but wanted to just come on and share this gem before my attention wanders and I forget.

 

[Kaatje]

@Margery
Thank you for both your posts, I love them. They unravel the conundrum very well!
Will file them for further reference, and will watch the videos. Very good stuff indeed.

 

[Margery]

Oh I should explain, my dive into those 3 verses was sparked by Gary, he didn't mention the rapture element or the possible covenant of the AC in the 2 talks I linked.

I've heard him mention the rapture in the past, as a hidden reference in Zeph and remembered hearing that and wanting to track it down.

I also wanted to track down the actual Hebrew from chapter 2 v 1 of Zeph and see if there was a possibility it was Israel like Gary thought. There is a possibility if Zeph is referring to Israel as apostate, however given the context and the word Goy which is nations - gentiles to be specific, it's more likely that it means a foreign group inside Gaza that is troubling Israel.

 

[Spartan Sprinter]

Oh I should explain, my dive into those 3 verses was sparked by Gary, he didn't mention the rapture element or the possible covenant of the AC in the 2 talks I linked.

I've heard him mention the rapture in the past, as a hidden reference in Zeph and remembered hearing that and wanting to track it down.

I also wanted to track down the actual Hebrew from chapter 2 v 1 of Zeph and see if there was a possibility it was Israel like Gary thought. There is a possibility if Zeph is referring to Israel as apostate, however given the context and the word Goy which is nations - gentiles to be specific, it's more likely that it means a foreign group inside Gaza that is troubling Israel.

Yes i watched this last night too.

I thought he may have been referencing God protecting Israel via Petra but when he kept mentioning before the decreengoes forth, i was in the same school of thought as you.

Things that make you go hmmmm....

 

[Margery]

Yes i watched this last night too.

I thought he may have been referencing God protecting Israel via Petra but when he kept mentioning before the decreengoes forth, i was in the same school of thought as you.

Things that make you go hmmmm....

Yes because what other decree is there at that point in time that ties in with the Tribulation? Only the one Daniel and Isaiah talk about. The covenant with the many, aka the covenant with death and Sheol that kicks off the Trib. Since Zephaniah is talking about the Day of the Lord aka the Tribulation period- then any mention of a Decree would be suspiciously similar to Daniel and Isaiah's covenant.